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Author Topic: Migrant caravans  (Read 2393 times)

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MickyP

Re: Migrant caravans
« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2018, 05:35:56 PM »
Things received for free are not appreciated by the needy recipients. I see this in my country where about 30% of the population receive social grants. Service delivery protests occur almost daily across the country and clinics, schools, shops are looted, vandalised and in some cases burnt to the ground.
Financial aid given to Central American countries by America more than likely does not filter down to the population and is probably not used to maintain and develop the country. The United States like all other countries that hand out cash should monitor the use of such aid.
How has this caravan been allowed to cross boarders without following immigration laws of the countries involved? If they crash the boarder fence they should be rounded up sent back but this didn't happen. We don't know what forces and influence is behind the movement. Why are women and children placed at the front of the caravan?

I really do feel for the innocent people in the caravan especially the children. Every Child needs both a mother and father so families should be kept together. This is more traumatic for the migrants than it is for armchair commentators.
I hope that the situation can be resolved without bloodshed.
 

Mako

Re: Migrant caravans
« Reply #31 on: October 28, 2018, 05:40:11 PM »
Guys, again, don't let whatever network you slavishly follow (MSNBC or FOX) play you for a sucker. 

Seriously...

We turned away 330,000 people from the border last year.  You know what we call 7,000 unarmed, broke, Honduran Moms with their kids showing up? 

"A slow week"...

I know it's hard to get actual facts to pierce the spoon-fed propaganda that your left or right media source feeds you, which you gobble up like your dog gobbles up a bowl of dog food.  It can be difficult to turn away from those that simply preach to the choir instead of actually investigate anything.

Just remember: The media...YOUR media, NOT the opposition media, has one goal: Gin up your fear as much as possible so you keep your eyes glued to all of their boner pill ads and their low testosterone ads and all their other bulls*** ads. 

Meanwhile the literal no-nothings like Hannity or Carlson or O'Donnell or Maddow (pick your enemy's favorite talking head) gets absolutely disgustingly filthy rich. While your quality of life has been falling for 3+ decades now continuously.

Stop the process.  Watch your "team's" media, that's fine, I know you need it, you just can't live without it, especially those on the right who propel hilariously bad shows with uninformed hosts like Fox and Friends to large numbers, but question their motives and the reason why they push a story always

Fox pushes the caravan story to rile you up and make you a sucker. MSNBC pushes DACA and migrant family separation stories similarly. 

STOP being a sucker, and find news sources that are not a member of either party.  Non-biased or influenced information is your friend in this age, not "State TV" (Fox)  ::)  or "The Resistance" (MSNBC/CNN)  ::) .
« Last Edit: October 28, 2018, 05:43:02 PM by Mako »
 

MickyP

Re: Migrant caravans
« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2018, 06:18:46 PM »
Guys, again, don't let whatever network you slavishly follow (MSNBC or FOX) play you for a sucker. 

Seriously...

We turned away 330,000 people from the border last year.  You know what we call 7,000 unarmed, broke, Honduran Moms with their kids showing up? 

"A slow week"...

I am aware of the ongoing illegal crossings into the US. Building the wall will not stop the infiltration but will reduce it to a controllable level.

Your slow week comment emphasises the importance of having a uniformed immigration policy. Regardless of right or wrong, these people are looking for an opportunity to a better life. It's not an easy fix situation at all. There are bad situations all over the world and it's only human to try and find an immediate solution.
The caravan is a new way of doing the same old thing, illegal crossing of boarders.
I know news agencies work off views and advertising etc etc. I was part of the industry for a while so I know how they work.
I could be sympathetic to the migrants because I see them desperate to escape from an empty shell of a country. Not their fault individually or collectively. You can not go up against bad governance without loss of life.

 

Mako

Re: Migrant caravans
« Reply #33 on: October 28, 2018, 06:39:59 PM »
Guys, again, don't let whatever network you slavishly follow (MSNBC or FOX) play you for a sucker. 

Seriously...

We turned away 330,000 people from the border last year.  You know what we call 7,000 unarmed, broke, Honduran Moms with their kids showing up? 

"A slow week"...

I am aware of the ongoing illegal crossings into the US. Building the wall will not stop the infiltration but will reduce it to a controllable level.

Your slow week comment emphasises the importance of having a uniformed immigration policy. Regardless of right or wrong, these people are looking for an opportunity to a better life. It's not an easy fix situation at all. There are bad situations all over the world and it's only human to try and find an immediate solution.
The caravan is a new way of doing the same old thing, illegal crossing of boarders.
I know news agencies work off views and advertising etc etc. I was part of the industry for a while so I know how they work.
I could be sympathetic to the migrants because I see them desperate to escape from an empty shell of a country. Not their fault individually or collectively. You can not go up against bad governance without loss of life.

Micky I admire your thought process, obviously you think through issues and are a strong mind. 

The non-Trumpy Border Patrol reps, at all levels (from the ground to the office) have always said that illegal crossings are not the majority, that the existing system is actually not too shabby in terms of effectiveness, and that the data they can provide shows definitively that not only is a new "wall" not necessary, but that it will not stem illegal crossings to a statistically relevant degree.

These are not lefties, and it's important to note that.  They don't have a dog in the hunt, other than what they actually see with their own eyes.

They're the experts, so in my mind, everything else...everything...is just State TV ginning up people's xenophobia for ad revenue and personal gain (Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, Hannity, etc).  That's all it is.

The right-wing money machine is in full gear, pumping out books, podcasts, youtube shows, and of course State TV, all about fear...and nothing else.

The right is in control of the majority of state governments, the majority of governor's houses, the majority of the house, the majority of the senate, the white house, the supreme court, etc.  They're in control of everything.

And yet...

State TV would have you believe that the entire country in "on the verge of collapse" from "culture rot" and (insert 1000x silly terms they've coined to gin up fear of change), and that their geriatric audience, who rarely avails themsevles to you know, actual facts, should take action immediately! But first, please watch these ads for boner pills... ;D

It has to make you laugh...or cry I guess.

And again, for the thin-skinned right wingers reading this, who are soooooo sensitive to any criticism these days despite being in control of the entire country, this applies equally to the left. 

They are the same proponents of a true s***-show, they LOVED the kids-in-cages shots, absolutely creamed over them, just to rile up their own bubble-base....THE RESISTANCE!!!! lmao, oh my...

Anyway, look with your eyes, read non-biased sources of actual investigative journalism to see the whole picture, and try to resist the warm bubbly feeling of a media network simply giving you what you WANT, what you so desperately WANT to see and hear.  It's hard, but I try to do it myself, I try to say "maybe my friend here, my favorite tv talking head who I just love love love and is so right right right all the time on things, is completely full of s***, and I should question their opinion and their supposed facts.  Let me go look up this issue from alternate sources and see what's real on this particular issue..."

Tucker Carlson trying to gin up his audience with the complete hoax that was the "African Government Land Grab from "Whites" story, and Rachel Maddow falling for the complete hoax that was "Trump's ACTUAL Tax Returns, in 5...4...3...2...oh ooops, nothing here" are two perfect recent examples of why everything anyone says on any network, must be verified before you put your "mmmhmmm, yup, that sounds right, goddamned (liberals) or goddamned (fascist right)" seal of approval on it.  :)

Love the person, love the network, fine, that's your choice, but verify everything they're feeding you with real facts from alternate sources who don't have a dog in the hunt.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2018, 06:41:56 PM by Mako »
 

MickyP

Re: Migrant caravans
« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2018, 07:16:30 PM »
Mako, you have given a very realistic and appealing message regarding news agencies. I do agree that people should variety facts as best they can for themselves before they jump on the bandwagon.
Your two examples of Tucker Carlson. ..mmmm. The story about land expropriation without compensation in South Africa that he ran stems from Afriforum (a predominantly white organisation looking out for the interest of ALL land owners in South Africa). His facts were correct, however, due to international exposure the process has been stalled for now. Expropriation without compensation is still on the cards and will more than likely be written into law. Farm murders are a reality as well. My uncle was murdered on his farm. I should know. Our president has just put "White Monopoly Capital" to bed. (Derived by British firm Bell Pottinger, a PR company). This caused much racial tension and political grandstanding here.
I prefer not to talk in too much detail about my country. I hope you understand.

I thought it is only fair to point out that you, also a thinking and seemingly intellegent man have been roped into believing false news. Our situation is as real as the caravan.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2018, 07:19:29 PM by MickyP »
 

gizmotron

Re: Migrant caravans
« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2018, 07:21:46 PM »
It's not the news that drives the narrative. It's money. Small employers all across the country want second class workers that they can exploit, especially along the lines of a cash underground of cheap workers. It's the chamber of commerce types that want cheap servants for domestic and hospitality work. They don't  want a working E-verify that actually works. They like this cheap labor pool. And in a lot of cases they like the tax benefits too. As long as there is a sub standard lowest class worker this thing will never get solved. As soon as they demand rights, equal pay, and retirement privileges E-verify will start magically working fine. You would not need a wall if employers and housewives were punished for hiring them. America does not really want this problem solved. If they can't work and the gravy train of hand outs dries up they will leave on their own.
 
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Mako

Re: Migrant caravans
« Reply #36 on: October 28, 2018, 07:40:41 PM »
Mako, you have given a very realistic and appealing message regarding news agencies. I do agree that people should variety facts as best they can for themselves before they jump on the bandwagon.
Your two examples of Tucker Carlson. ..mmmm. The story about land expropriation without compensation in South Africa that he ran stems from Afriforum (a predominantly white organisation looking out for the interest of ALL land owners in South Africa). His facts were correct, however, due to international exposure the process has been stalled for now. Expropriation without compensation is still on the cards and will more than likely be written into law. Farm murders are a reality as well. My uncle was murdered on his farm. I should know. Our president has just put "White Monopoly Capital" to bed. (Derived by British firm Bell Pottinger, a PR company). This caused much racial tension and political grandstanding here.
I prefer not to talk in too much detail about my country. I hope you understand.

I thought it is only fair to point out that you, also a thinking and seemingly intellegent man have been roped into believing false news. Our situation is as real as the caravan.

I'm not going to argue this as you're experienced and have some history here, but calling the synopsis of that fraudulent report by Carlson "fake news" is incorrect.

Every local African news agency without a bias and without a dog in this hunt, has stated that the Tucker Carlson gunned up version of that story is absolutely not true. 

I understand you've had loss, and I understand you're on the ground there, but that doesn't mean you're not capable of succumbing to bias confirmation (seeing a small anecdotal samples and representing them to confirm your personal belief on the issue) as anyone. 

Most people in AZ and TX complain that "illegals are everywhere" when in reality most of them are actually legitimate citizens (hard to believe for most heheh). That's a perfect example of bias confirmation affecting their outlook on an issue.

We also have several CRAZY laws "on the books" here, but the likelihood of enforcement is zero.

The farm murders, yes, they happen. As they do here. As they do everywhere. Rarely are they motivated other than hate/personal gain. 

The overall point here is that everyone, everyone, must seek outside non-biased sources of information before choosing to believe something as dogma.  We all have to work at it, myself included.  :) [size=78%] [/size]
 

MickyP

Re: Migrant caravans
« Reply #37 on: October 28, 2018, 08:06:11 PM »
I'll just ask you to research the land issue in South Africa more throughly and be careful and mindful of the source of information you chose to believe.
There are news clips and full speaches of President Ramaposa talking about land expropriation without compensation and confirming that it will happen. He recently denied that farm murders occur in South Africa. Do me a favour and research this subject as well. Ask your travel advisory board about visiting South Africa and see what they say. The only fake news is the cover up and non reporting of atrocities here.
I must warn you that you will come across graphic pictures and read about horrific torture inflicted on victims, from both rural and urban areas.

I stand by my statement that Tucker Carlson was correct and on the mark on the land expropriation story.. would you like me to send you a few links from our parliament and politicians as well as political parties to confirm the facts?

 

Mako

Re: Migrant caravans
« Reply #38 on: October 28, 2018, 08:26:07 PM »
I hear you Mickey, and I don't disagree, but I would counter with this: 

Is Trump responsible for the synagogue shooting?

In the exact, and I mean EXACT same way, the SA President's rhetoric is in no way responsible for any hate crime occurring on family farms there.

If you believe otherwise, then you must, absolutely believe that Trump's similar rhetoric here is responsible for the synagogue shooter feeling empowered to kill.

I personally don't believe that. People do what they want for their own selfish reasons. 

The atrocities they commit are their own.  They're not doing it as some sort of larger conspiracy theory or "rebellion" attempt.  They're just angry cunts who want something out of it.  The synagogue shooter, hell all the shooters here, aren't doing it for their "cause".  They're doing it because they want to kill.  They want to make a mark, they want to make their boring lives important.

I value your words and experiences Mickey, hopefully none of it touches you or your family's lives in the future, as it's awful no matter what political bend it's given.  :(
 

mr j

Re: Migrant caravans
« Reply #39 on: October 28, 2018, 08:45:19 PM »
"Love the person, love the network, fine, that's your choice, but verify everything they're feeding you with real facts from alternate sources who don't have a dog in the hunt" >> That could be an entirely different thread.

Who checks the fact checkers? Its not as simple as.....verify the information. Verify from whom?
A bias source? A non-bias source? A source you never heard from?

It can be *VERY* tricky when talking about FACT.
 EXAMPLE >> you turn on the news, there is a large building fire in Tokyo. Do you live in Tokyo? Are you standing in front of the building? What is your news source? How do you KNOW for sure, a building is on fire in Tokyo?
Point being, everything/everyone has a certain element of BIAS. I know this much, a HUGE HUGE mass of people are heading towards my border. What will the American/Mexican president do about it?
 
« Last Edit: October 28, 2018, 08:47:00 PM by mr j »
 
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Mako

Re: Migrant caravans
« Reply #40 on: October 28, 2018, 08:59:35 PM »
"Love the person, love the network, fine, that's your choice, but verify everything they're feeding you with real facts from alternate sources who don't have a dog in the hunt" >> That could be an entirely different thread.

Who checks the fact checkers? Its not as simple as.....verify the information. Verify from whom?
A bias source? A non-bias source? A source you never heard from?

It can be *VERY* tricky when talking about FACT.
 EXAMPLE >> you turn on the news, there is a large building fire in Tokyo. Do you live in Tokyo? Are you standing in front of the building? What is your news source? How do you KNOW for sure, a building is on fire in Tokyo?
Point being, everything/everyone has a certain element of BIAS. I know this much, a HUGE HUGE mass of people are heading towards my border. What will the American/Mexican president do about it?

It can be, but the effort is worth it.  I feel that people who have succumbed to tribalism, and simply don't want to be confronted with anything at all, even facts, that dispute their tribe's official talking points, refuse to acknowledge legitimate news sources.  Those people are lost, there's not much hope there.

But for those who have voted for BOTH Democrats AND Republicans for President, Senate, and Governor as I have, which is less than 2% of the population, who are not tribal, who vote their own interests, who don't believe in dogma or the nonsense perpetrated by both parties, I can quickly and easily find accurate research on any given topic.

It's out there, but do you want to see it?  And I'm not talking about Mickey and the SA issue here, that's a personal heartfelt belief that can't be dismissed out of hand or easily helped, I see exactly what he means and I understand his viewpoint.

I'm talking about something like the migrant caravan, which is being hilariously blown out of proportion, by people who have a vested monetary interest in doing so.  Oh how both sides are making money from that wagon-train of Ecuadorian moms...they are loving your interest in, absolutely loving it.  As are the heads of both political parties, to gin up their bases to vote, they love it!  ;D

That's obvious pandering, easy to dismiss.  You don't need to hunt much to find that the caravan is a total 100% joke, and not even worthy of a single news mention on page 8, let alone the front page BREAKING FOX NEWS ALERT status it's being given.  Comedy... ;D

Always be curious, always be learning, always read everything without dismissing the author.  That's the key.  Soon you come to a consensus, and you can see how say 25% of the content generated on the subject is simply hyperbole trying to keep people's eyeballs on the tube. The other 75% is reality, even if I may or may not like it from a political standpoint, and it's what should be believed.
 

mr j

Re: Migrant caravans
« Reply #41 on: October 28, 2018, 09:07:28 PM »
I do believe, get both sides. FOX & MSNBC (or CNN, lol).
 

caddy

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Re: Migrant caravans
« Reply #42 on: October 28, 2018, 11:41:07 PM »

All illegals would flee and never come back if the law was enforced that a $500 daily fine for any employer who

hires any illegal.

The law was passed several years ago by congress.

I guess the cheap labor over rules common sense. Therefore the law is hushed up.
 

mr j

Re: Migrant caravans
« Reply #43 on: October 29, 2018, 01:08:07 AM »
What if it were 8,000 Russians coming to our southern border in order to vote for Trump?
 

Mike

Re: Migrant caravans
« Reply #44 on: October 29, 2018, 08:09:54 AM »
Always be curious, always be learning, always read everything without dismissing the author.  That's the key.  Soon you come to a consensus, and you can see how say 25% of the content generated on the subject is simply hyperbole trying to keep people's eyeballs on the tube.
Mako,
The truth is not a matter of consensus. You say we should look for alternative sources, but as Ken pointed out, how are we to know what is a biased source or a non-biased source? Yes there is a danger of confirmation bias; anyone with an axe to grind can upload their own take on events and those who are prejudiced can easily find their own echo-chambers (that's one of the downsides of the internet), but although the REPORTING of events can be biased, anyone can confirm that the events actually happened or are actually happening (from multiple sources). The INTERPRETATION and commentary on those events is quite a different matter. To take the migrant caravan example, you say it's a joke. Really? Why? what evidence and support do you have for this view other than your irrelevant comments that the news organizations make a lot of money out of reporting it? Yours is an incredibly cynical viewpoint, and makes no sense. Are we to just throw up our hands in despair and dismiss it ALL as "fake news"?
« Last Edit: October 29, 2018, 09:03:44 AM by Mike »