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Roulette Forum => Casinos Online and... Offline (reviews) => Topic started by: thomasleor on April 13, 2019, 04:10:47 PM

Title: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?
Post by: thomasleor on April 13, 2019, 04:10:47 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/8M0pcHT/2019-04-13-11-09-00.jpg)

During my many years in the world of Roulette, which I am very passionate about, I have encountered many cheaters who dwell in delusions that their cheating methodology and other unethical behaviors, at any given roulette table in the largest Casinos worldwide, would go unnoticed and provide them with a good profit.

Suffice to say most of the wise guys and professors with whom I held a contact with at my hay days of gambling at Europe´s largest and finest B&M Casinos, are now barred from the very establishments because whatever method they used was inevitably revealed by said Casinos. And trust when I say, Casinos even 10 years ago, not to mention today, have had, and still has, some very impressive countermeasures against cheaters.

What is exactly a cheater, per definition specifically at a roulette table?

Let's look at the basic rules outlined and enforced by any serious Casino (especially Europe):

Players are not to collect their winnings and betting chips on the outside chances until all of the winnings in the same box (e.g. all bets and winnings on 'red') have been paid. This is to avoid confusion and minimize the chance for players to steal other players' chips.


• Players must not touch chips after the dealer gives the hand signal or announces "no more bets". Players are not allowed to remove, change or add bets past this point.


• When the dealer has placed the "dolly" (the plastic marker used to mark the winning number) it is strictly prohibited to touch any chips on a winning chance.


• Croupiers are not allowed to take money to change for chips from a player's hand. If the player wishes to change he or she must place the money on the layout of the table.


• The use of electronic equipment at the table such as mobile phones and cameras is also prohibited.


The only items allowed in front of a player are Chips, money, drinks, cigarettes. Bulky items such as wallets and purses or bags must not be on the table.


These rules, however crude looking to a cheater/con-man, are essentially very efficient considering the technology and experience that backs them up with the latest surveillance and A.I. software + hardware technology mainly provided by IBM (A.I.), Cisco (UCS Servers), and Intel (Xeon processors).

Today´s Casinos, especially in Europe have an Intricate network, connected to all security details between all Casinos in Europe and is known as SIENA (Secure Information Exchange Network Application) which is a EUROPOL project and security protocol all European Casinos cooperate with on 24/7 basis..

It is extremely efficient as it forewarns any casino if a barred cheater, or any other suspicious/dangerous character is about to enter their premises, much like efficient passport controls at an airport. Once you get in that system as a red flag, forget any visit to a land-based Casino stretching from anything from a year, to life,  depending on the crime.

Like identifying card counters in Black Jack since the famous MIT student sting in the USA back in the golden days of non-existing Casino surveillance,  today's Casinos can easily identify for example Visual Ballistic players at tables, as a certain amount of factors reveals such a gambler once he is tagged by the system and observed during play.

Though RRS technology, and lately, this tech combined with RNG controlled wheels, the very challenge has basically chased away most VB gamblers from the tables, as this tech being installed in most wheels (wheel manufacturer Cammegh leading the pack). Incredibly some VBs still think they can outsmart all these security apparatus,  either out of desperation, or stupidity.

I know this because I have seen some are still hoping to extract even the slightest profit believing they will manage to somehow fool all this impressive technology with something homemade and never get caught. Stupidity is a face easily recognized once you know the facts of a set of problems occurring in a game of high uncertainty,  like war or gambling. Greed increases the probability of the events revealing the errors of such stupidity, coming true.

At their hands today, Casinos possess biometric face recognition software that is state of the art, matched only by the Counterintelligence agencies in the USA, China and Europe (UK).  This software was originally developed in the USA by a little known programming genius by the name Jeff Jonas. Half of the worlds Casinos today are using his highly effective software with enormous success in rooting out cheaters.

There are of course Casinos that make errors in the security department by trying to keep it cheap which of course is swiftly discovered and used by cheaters once the word is out. Yet the for the business, in general, these days, a cheater like a VB player or other types of AP´s have little to no chance of really winning consistently in a B&M Casino. If they claim they do, they are lying and the way to call them out is to ask them show proof of winnings as every Casino leaves a receipt to any withdrawal by a player from a Cashier.

Casino surveillance these days comes in many complex forms and are often used in a cluster form of a surveillance package controlled by very sophisticated software where the operator only controls "alerts" on the many displays in front them once the system discovers a cheater.

This is enabled by cameras of incredible resolution, that covers every square meter of the Casino floor, and sensors calibrated for various functions where EDD sensors, or, electronic device sensors, are the worst enemies to a cheater, as they today can detect a smartphone that transmits and receives short data bursts, despite being hidden in your clothes.

This will, of course, result in Casino security swiftly apprehend the target and take him to a room from interrogation before he is thrown out, or in serious cases like the one at Ritz Casino 15 years ago where a Hungarian woman and two Serbian gangsters were caught in a huge attempt to cheat the establishment.   

On the first night they walked out with £100,000. They returned on a subsequent evening by trying to walk out with £1.2m. Ritz is believed to have paid them £300,000 in cash and written out a cheque for the balance. But, as is routine when such big wins occur, the casino reviewed its security tapes and called in the police.

 For tax reasons, Casinos have to track gamblers who cross certain winnings thresholds. If you win over a specific sum, expect to be observed and tagged even if they know your name and origin from the first check in.
heaters who try to recruit people (we have one prominent on this forum who believes his VB can beat any public Casino in Europe) to play their game, because they themselves have been caught in the past, or dare not themselves take the risk of getting caught, are subject to various A.I Systems of which one of them was bought and offered by IBM and called  NORA (Non-Obvious Relationship Awareness) Software.

(https://i.ibb.co/NShhR8V/casino-security-1.jpg)

It was and is still today, a technology that uncovers relationships that can be exploited fraudulently for profit, such as connections between dealers and gamblers or as it has been further developed, crews of gamblers with no obvious kinship by name, or country of origin.

(https://i.ibb.co/DkZHd25/image06.jpg)

Security guards remain the first line of defense in any casino. They may not be high-tech, but their presence reminds guests and aspiring robbers that they’re being carefully watched.  The truth is that most cheaters aren’t fearless psychopaths, and will be scared off by the thought of confronting a Casino guard.  Everything in a Casino is within a 120-second running distance if, for example, a robbery is taking place, or a gambler being caught cheating by the internal CSS (Casino Surveillance System).

B&M Casino cheaters  play a short-sighted game, always risking of getting  caught and not only removed of their winnings, but also fined and risking prison time, depending in which country they are caught.

One could therefore naturally pose the question, facing such powerful countermeasures, is it really worth cheating at roulette when you can use purely mathematical tools and good money management to win what you desire, or need for a specific period?

Certainly not, but blind greed and idiocy is a fundamental flaw and reality all humans have to live with on a daily basis.

Even Casinos.
Title: Re: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?
Post by: MickyP on April 14, 2019, 12:55:46 AM
"Yet the for the business, in general, these days, a cheater like a VB player or other types of AP´s have little to no chance of really winning consistently in a B&M Casino. If they claim they do, they are lying and the way to call them out is to ask them show proof of winnings as every Casino leaves a receipt to any withdrawal by a player from a Cashier."
Quote from above post.

Thomas, what exactly is the purpose of this thread?
It appears to target VB/AP players, branding them as cheaters based on the presumption that they all use roulette computers. If this is not your intention then simply winning by using a system/strategy/method could have a player banned.

I once again question your ethics as your motive is painfully obvious. What a sack of s*** you are.
Title: Re: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?
Post by: MrPerfect. on April 14, 2019, 06:04:30 AM
Mickey,  just let him be. Judging by how he show himself up till now, he works for casinos and  try to do his best.
    There always gonna be a table, terminal, PC monitor between us ( players ) and them ( casino).
   Some of casino workers are normal people that react adequate and some are taking it personally.  I can somehow understand them... it's their bred & butter, they are good slaves for a good master, master is kind and they defend him from everything they perceive as a treat.
    Now imagine when they witness real player!!! Someone who not only free in mind and money, but with potential  capability to send for cleaners them and their masters together. That should be pain for them, l gess.
Title: Re: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?
Post by: Badger on April 14, 2019, 09:19:05 AM
I enjoyed your post Thomas.

I agree that a casino would regard someone using a computer as a cheater. You have to play according to  rules that THEY make.
This applies to any sport or game that a person would participate in.
The fact that some players can apply VB/AP without computers would also be a threat to casinos. Else why would they apply counter measures like RSS.

I also think that if you had a system that could make you $30 000 each time you went to the casino, you would be observed and then be banned.

Title: Re: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?
Post by: solaris on April 14, 2019, 11:20:36 AM
Very informative post, thanks Thomas.
Title: Re: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?
Post by: MrPerfect. on April 14, 2019, 05:51:41 PM
Now l understood the first post on this tread.  Suddenly it made much more sense. 
  @Thomas.. l got a PM from our " friend". Had no idea he kept " cross communication ". I often used to give him my sencere opinion about things that sparkle his attention.  I had to confirm that situation he expirienced wasn't "his fault" . At least in this particular case.
   As you can see, my opinion was kept in private and shared only with person l thought l could trust. I apologise for my mistake on this one. You were absolutely right to get pissed off.
Title: Re: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?
Post by: GambleOnlineRoulette on April 14, 2019, 06:57:19 PM
VB or  AP or dealer signature or bias wheel playing quite much RRS wheels have kill them make Live roulettes quite much like RNG roulette. Only chance is just go play some not so modern country land-based casino  which wheels are not so modern new easier to beat. All Cammegh wheels should avoid at any cause, if play real money because RRS  on them.
Title: Re: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?
Post by: MickyP on April 15, 2019, 04:27:40 AM
It appears I may have been quick to judge Thomas.
Please accept my apology Thomas. I was and still am unaware of the personal facts laced into your comments on VB/AP  players.
Title: Re: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?
Post by: thomasleor on April 15, 2019, 08:17:47 AM
Apology accepted.
Title: Re: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?
Post by: dobbelsteen on April 15, 2019, 08:31:05 AM

Cheating players are individual persons. They use forbidden rules.

The big cheaters are the software providers and the casinos whose the manipulated smart software. On internet all games are driven by such software. The outcome of the game depends on the bets of the players. The software uses databases with the data of players,  the  profit of results and much more. The random outcome of the devices is an illusion. The eprom contains the secret software.

On internet you can play on cheap roulette in the practice mode. With very simple statistic methods you can prove  that the outcome is not random. The roulette has two illustrations, one for starting the game and one for creating the winning number for the casino

Holland casino uses the smart software from Cammegh. With the pictures of the camera you can see the small acceleration before the ball will land and the unnatural landing. There is a connection between the bets and the  outcome.
Title: Re: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?
Post by: MickyP on April 15, 2019, 11:00:15 AM
All good Thomas but your comments on VB/AP players remains an issue especially your reference to "the one on this forum". Care to explain or retract that statement...
Title: Re: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?
Post by: Badger on April 15, 2019, 12:00:08 PM
"The big cheaters are the software providers and the casinos whose the manipulated smart software"

Careful Dobbelsteen. I used that line in a post and got flamed for it.
Apparently casino's can't cheat because there are rules and regulations that prohibit them from doing so.
I suspect that my casino has RRS as they installed new wheels a year or so ago.

Title: Re: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?
Post by: MrPerfect. on April 15, 2019, 03:33:03 PM
Badger, do not worry about being wrong while calling entire industry as cheaters. They are. Simple and undeniable fact of existence of house edge de facto makes them cheaters. Games are ridged in house favor and do provide mathematical anfair advantage to them. They consider it normal and due fighting anyone who defying current "normal" state of things.
    They are thugs who cheat others legally and like any thugs they are fine with changing rules on the go if it benefits them.
    Think about a case of 1.3m mentioned in first post, casino called police and court process took place. Anyhow judge made them pay winnings to players, but l doubt that any of these players are particularly wellcome to casinos after that. Is it fair game? Who is a cheater after all?
    Take apart and inspect any casino game. In roulette you will find direct and not direct interference with the current spin or session ... from RRS devises, ball changes, dealing procedures ... till nmb  after ball spin and ds training for dealers.
    BJ changed form, more cards and you never know if few were simply removed manually. ...
    You in fact are expected to lose and it's normal, if you play as they want you. What is not normal , at least on my opinion, is when you find a way to beat them in their own cheating game, they call you a cheater. No lows are respected,  personal data you provide to casino is not safe. It can be shared with other casinos worldwide . You do not need to do anything illigal for that.
Winning at their games is enough to be not welcome.
Title: Re: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?
Post by: Stratege on April 15, 2019, 06:28:27 PM
Thomasleor's message is well-informed about the role of surveillance and control of individuals. But VB players must not be equated with cheats. Players who play at the last moment do not cheat, they are cunning with the rules (but I'm not saying it's moral to trick that way). It is the casino's responsibility to stop the bets before the ball starts looking for its box. Moreover, on some casino websites, it is clearly said that counting cards in blackjack is cheating. This is of course wrong! The card counter only plays. The simple act of thinking cleverly becomes a quasi-offense (for the casino). But those who count badly are not considered cheaters because they lose. It's not "counting cards" that is called cheating but "count + win". Regarding the expulsion of players "too regularly winners", they are no longer considered customers but rivals, competitors in the business sense. Any business to survive will try to eliminate or weaken the competition as much as possible. It's a business law.
Title: Re: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?
Post by: MickyP on April 15, 2019, 07:17:07 PM
Stratege, thank you for putting the record straight regarding VB players.
Even with winning a player has to book (record) his activities and employ different methods on a rolling basis thus injecting variance into the win level and keeping away from the radar. Chipping away at the establishments ever growing bankroll is somewhat of a lasting approach that may avoid a player from being banned. Casinos need winners to lure others to the game so if they make 5 million and pay out 2 million they are still making money. It is when a player or syndicate of players go all out to drain the pot that security is initiated. As Thomas stated, greed creates the fall.
Title: Re: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?
Post by: scepticus on April 15, 2019, 07:46:46 PM
On a " Live Wheel" how can casinos control " scatter" ? How can AP /  VB players control scatter ? 
Title: Re: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?
Post by: MrPerfect. on April 15, 2019, 10:40:33 PM
Scepticus@
  Scatter is a dispersion from some point.
On a life wheel casino can do many things ... from launching ball not from last number till activating rrs during the spin. Many things.
   Player can only collect data and choose wisely, sharpen his skills.
Title: Re: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?
Post by: MrPerfect. on April 15, 2019, 10:57:39 PM
Mickey,  growing bankroll in the casino may be not the best choice. Your action is monitored and analysed.  Playing short with high level of agression is a best choice. When you lose , it's natural cover, when you win it looks like luck. The shorter you play, more difficult for casino to realise why you win. Their conclusions depends on statistical evidence. Short samples with progressions do not provide evidence for conclusions . There a lot you can do... use money chips , jump in and out of the game... there are progressions that do not change your performance much but can overload brain of anyone trying to understand your bets.. or their statistical software ;). Why not if we can ?
Title: Re: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?
Post by: scepticus on April 15, 2019, 11:02:14 PM
Mr Perfect

The point I make is that scatter can ruin the " Best Laid Schemes of Mice and Men " - including yours.
Do you claim that  you do not lose except when  you choose to do so ?
Title: Re: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?
Post by: scepticus on April 15, 2019, 11:10:07 PM
Stratege
I think that gambling is not immoral .  So long as you bet within the rules then no matter when or how you bet is not cheating.
 Casinos could say that those who  profit from roulette  are " Cheats " because they are not supposed to profit but only lose .
Title: Re: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?
Post by: MrPerfect. on April 16, 2019, 02:30:26 AM
Scepticus , l do not choose to lose. I may choose level of agresion in my betting wich is more likely to produce bigger win or minor loss.
   Anyone can lose, mistakes are costly. Need to do risk management. .. like with everything related to the money.
Title: Re: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?
Post by: Stratege on April 16, 2019, 06:31:59 AM

Scepticus, bet in the rules is not obvious with the VB of the last moment. Players would sometimes put a chip after the fall of the ball. The time of a gesture is also a variable that the player does not control himself. I spoke of morality, just for a moment, to say that if the "trick" is legitimate, go a little further on the morals (the loyalty to the respect of the rules), but absolutely not the cheating, because it is the casino that has to maintain the rules. It would not be moral for a casino to give the opportunity to play after the ball falls and then say that all the players at the table are cheats. It would be incitement to cheat. Players who earn sustainably without using information or a process to predict the outcome of the game (so a concrete element) cannot be called cheats. The mental calculation of the player is not cheating, because he does not use any concrete information concerning the number or card that will come.

You also speak Scepticus that dispersal can ruin the best scheme and therefore, we cannot choose to win or lose (something like this). With a winning selection, we cannot predict the outcome of an attack, but we can predict the outcome of a number of attacks. I give an example on EC. We have more winners than losers (with a winning method). We can do a “paroli” in 5 terms (or 6 or 7 ...). Finally, we will not win often (in the sense of victory), but we will gain a profit all the same (measurable statistically).
Title: Re: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?
Post by: scepticus on April 16, 2019, 11:44:07 AM
Logic dictates that if you lose  you cannot claim that you can profit in the future.
The word " Predict " does not mean that  you can forecast with " Certainty " .It oinly means a " Forecast"  and both  are just " Guesses " .
Newcomers to roulette should not be encouraged to think that profiting is "Easy"  as some in the forum claim. Sometmes winning is" Easy" when we have a winning run but there are times when we have losing runs.The only Stats that  really matter are the Profit and Loss Stats.
 Newcpmers need  to be aware  of exaggerated claims in forums. Don't believe everything you read in forums . 
Title: Re: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?
Post by: Stratege on April 16, 2019, 01:03:22 PM

Scepticus, it’s indeed important that new people are wary of the words used and especially unfounded ideas. I also made it clear that "predicting" the result of an attack is impossible, because in the short term we have no "certainty". The medium and long term (with a winning method) offer a minimum or average prediction, according to the results of our tests. The verb "predict" is commonly used in statistics. The best prediction rate between several choices, does not mean that the best choice will be 100% probability.

I don’t agree with you about the term "guesses", it's more about randomness, gambling and entertainment. We must not forget that roulette is originally a tool for studying probability. Our research on hazard is therefore of a scientific nature. But if many players don’t see things that way, they will try to "guess". Guess (riddle), guesses, diviner, aren’t the same register as "predict".

It would be interesting to open your discussion on "exaggerated claims on the forums", it would be a good action.  ;)
Title: Re: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?
Post by: scepticus on April 16, 2019, 04:37:05 PM
If you don't know the answer to a question then you can only guess the answer . An " Educated Guess"
an " Inspired Guess "  based on Intuition - or whatever .

As for " Exagerrated Claims " I think  most members can tell who makes them  ;D
Title: Re: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?
Post by: Stratege on April 16, 2019, 06:08:15 PM

Your message is for players who like to be entertained with their "intuition", their perception of a pattern in a sequence of spins. They have fun, it's their leisure. I cannot really answer your message, because I'm not a player, if I do not have anything to win, I do not play. Thirty years ago, I was already able to wait several hours at the roulette tables before playing only a few spins (since then, I improved a little). I'm not trying to guess, I wait for all my criteria are met before asking a chip. I make decisions according to objective criteria, my subjectivity (my intuition or my imagination) is absolutely not a criterion, on the contrary.

 "Our senses deceive us". Look for optical illusion examples on the net and you will understand better. Also, an economist got a Nobel Prize because he studied the sufficiently equivalent choices, and the consequence is that we end up choosing at random (according to our quite subjective preference). I stop the examples but there are others. There is one subject that is never discussed on the forums, it is the one of situations at the "limit" of our criteria. We still have some difficulty in deciding whether a strong criterion balances another average criterion. In these infrequent situations, we make an evaluation that is no longer completely objective, this is the place for art, but until we reach it, we hesitate.  :o
Title: Re: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?
Post by: MrPerfect. on April 16, 2019, 08:24:15 PM
Stratege,  did you play online hippodrome wheel one hour or so ego?
Title: Re: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?
Post by: scepticus on April 16, 2019, 08:36:29 PM
Stratege

The results of spins are Random and there is no way that you can determine  the result except by guessing.

If your “ Objective  Criteria “  resulted  in a win on every bet you made  then I could  accept that you do not guess. They don’t . So , no matter what fancy words you use you DO just guess.

Even Blackjack Counters just make educated  Guesses !
An educated guess is nothing to be ashamed of  so I don’t understand the reluctance to accept it. 

Incidentally, BANG goes Mr Perfect’s “objective criteria “ that you and I are one and the same person !
Title: Re: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?
Post by: MrPerfect. on April 16, 2019, 11:16:57 PM
Scepticus
   Maybe you could post these random results together with the spins? So we could objectively see what is your idea.
     Spins are rarely random enough.  Results of spins usually do depend on spins themselves.  There was only one roulette wheel l sou where results of the spins didn't really depended on spins... it's 1:45 chance according to my empirical observations. 
Title: Re: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?
Post by: scepticus on April 16, 2019, 11:27:45 PM
Mr Perfect
ALL spin results are random .  A Dictionary gives the meaning of random as

 " Statistics  . of or  characterizing  a  process  of  selection  in  which   each   item  of a  set   has  an  equal   probability  of  being   chosen "

Title: Re: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?
Post by: MrPerfect. on April 16, 2019, 11:33:06 PM
Scepticus,  roulette unfortunately doesn't possess ability to read. This idea of yours maybe good to post on forum, but in real play it has no application. 
Title: Re: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?
Post by: Stratege on April 17, 2019, 08:18:00 AM

I have never played in live roulette, not once, the term "random" does not apply with certainty to the player. Also, I have never played in my life, roulette RNG or other extravagant processes that "would" disappear the notion of pure hazard that is necessary for me. Scepticus, there is no fantasy in my language, you know it. I cannot "predict" by myself (because it would be "guessing"), it is the method that has a "predictive value", more or less strong (terms used in scientific methodology).

Your speech coincides with that of conservative mathematicians of academic knowledge: each spin is independent of the one that precedes it, so any choice is a complete hazard. But you add an absolute character: for you, the notion of "objective criteria" means to make a 100% accurate prediction. This reference to the absolute is not a debate for humans, but for souls without bodies. It is you who bring this very personal idea, besides you already tried this debate, a few weeks ago, but without success. This is the heart of your thesis but you do not really have any opponents, because you support an obviousness for everyone.

If the card counter at the BJ wins in the long run, like a roulette player, they make "educated guess according to objective criteria". Having a 5% advantage over the game makes it possible to say that we can "predict" that we are more likely to win than lose. The verb "to guess" does not belong to the activity of the player who uses a winning method (roulette, BJ or other games). The problem with your speech is that you use a slippage between the phrases: "guess" becomes "educated guesses". It's not the same thing. That's why I reformulated "educated guess according to objective criteria", otherwise you will stay in an in-between, to guide the discussion outside the roulette, and it is not my goal to go in this way. Why in your discussion you can say that your "9 blocks" brings an advantage and that in other discussions you say that the hazard is flawless, with proof no tests, but for argument the mass culture of the dictionary?

The academic knowledge of mathematicians seeks not to encourage crowds to come and lose their money at games. You can imagine the consequences, if these gentlemen said "chance is predictable at times, so gambling can be beaten"! Wanting to win the game is NOT an economic activity, it does not produce any wealth for society. The ruined families and suicides were numerous, at a time when everyone thought that a roulette with 1.35% loss was playable. Since then, the dictionary definition has not changed. In more than a century, man would not have made any progress on the notion of "hazard"?
Title: Re: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?
Post by: scepticus on April 17, 2019, 11:41:26 AM
Scepticus,  roulette unfortunately doesn't possess ability to read. This idea of yours maybe good to post on forum, but in real play it has no application.
:D :D :D :D BS
Title: Re: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?
Post by: scepticus on April 17, 2019, 01:30:24 PM
Stratege
You are indulging in wordplay . not me.
 An " Educated Guess " is just one kind of guess just as Light Blue is just one kind of blue. I use it to distinguish between  a guess with  consideration of " objective criteria " and one  without such consideration.

Most of us use " objective criteria  " in our assessment of probabilites . Where we differ is in what " objective criteria " we use  and our interpretation of them .
Results of spins ARE random and THAT is a fact ! . It is only those who misunderstand the meaning of random who refuse to accept it.   
Title: Re: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?
Post by: dobbelsteen on April 17, 2019, 02:20:21 PM
Stratege try to understand the beautiful permanence of a 150 spin EC sample. I Ask myself what is your mission on this forum.
Title: Re: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?
Post by: Stratege on April 17, 2019, 02:31:50 PM

If all spins are random, why are players looking for methods, why open roulette forums, why do some mathematicians study roulette? Why is Scepticus talking about a benefit with his "9 blocks"? I will say what you are looking for without wanting to accept it: proof that we can beat roulette.

So, for you, a logical demonstration. In the palestis discussion, I confirmed that playing 3 spins on D or C, decreased the deviance. Several players have observed this. Now, if the deviance is not what it should be, there is an imbalance between earned hits and lost hits. The approximate result is an advantage of about 2 or 3 units on 1000 spins. It's not beating the zero, but it's already a reversal of the equality or probability between hits earned and hits lost in a random game (not counting zero). Without considering the zero, you have already at this stage of my demonstration an example that hazard no longer has the qualifier of "random". You will now understand that, if I introduced in the palestis discussion the notion of "staggered games", it was to sensitize the players to multiply this advantage of 0.2 or 0.3%, to beat the zero and make a profit. I do not think my intervention was to play with words, over there or here.

What are you saying Dobbelsteen on samples of 150 spins? And also my mission?
Title: Re: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?
Post by: scepticus on April 17, 2019, 04:23:28 PM
Stratege
As gamblers we try to beat the  odds against us. This is why we discuss roulette on a roulette forum.The  question is - can we beat the odds ?
The  9 Block Charts and the 5 in 7 EC charts are not my creation but those of Professional Mathematicians . I make use of the ideas to profit . You and others don't . I don't see that as my problem.
You guys bring to my mind the quote of Sherlock Holmes  to Doctor Watson  . " You see but you don't observe " .
Title: Re: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?
Post by: Stratege on April 17, 2019, 05:37:08 PM

Do you think readers will understand you? You said yesterday that we cannot get an advantage over roulette, because it's a completely "random" game, and today you say (including yourself in the players) that we're trying to beat the roulette wheel, or also that you are looking for a profit with your blocks.

Regarding your question, you "see" that I gave you an answer, through my demonstration. But your question is that of the beginner, without any experience. So, you cannot "watch" my demonstration to its true value. If you were looking for "how" to beat roulette, you would have understood my demonstration. To ask the question of "how" shows certain achievements. At this level, your initial question no longer makes sense, because nothing would stop you, especially not the opinion of others. Then, at an even higher level, it is the question of "feasibility and profitability". What could be used for 10 or 20 years of research to get a ridiculous profit? This is the problem of many players, because they do not know enough techniques. I regret, Scepticus, the answer to your question lies in yourself, but it informs readers about the level of your concerns. Your concerns are not yet "technical". Not yet or maybe never? A detail on your 9 blocks. You will never be able to "watch" them with insight, if you do not have techniques to understand what you can do with them.
Title: Re: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?
Post by: MrPerfect. on April 17, 2019, 05:49:05 PM
Stratege,  please do not harm Scepticus. 
    It's a 99 year old fellow who has this forum as a last resort to keep his senile brain "active".
   If you expect any logic or argument you can relate with from him... DESIST NOW. That's not his aim, he is here just to "exercise " his brain.
 Let's have a minute of calm and understanding.... we got to be " tolerant" , you know? Here in UK there are planty of them ... they ask few coins for a burger or siggarette just to feel themselves a part of society. 
Title: Re: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?
Post by: MickyP on April 17, 2019, 06:59:22 PM
PMS , I see your game and your dribble remains dribble. You are incapable of answering a question directly and to the point.
Dobbelsteen asked you a very good question so answer it.
You think you can undermine people by telling them they lack knowledge and you are the knowledgeable one....hahaha
You don't play roulette do you? Maybe you are employed by a casino group to screw up serious roulette discussions on forums; I don't know. The picture you have painted of yourself on this forum is hideous to say the least. I hope Scepticus laughs you off.
MrPerfect, not nice to attack Scepticus on a personal level. Rather debate his roulette stance.

Scepticus, I just don't like to see pointless and unwarranted attacks on a player for no reason other than the fact that you asked a question PMS can not answer.
I'm not perfect in that department but I speak my mind and these guys are being unfair.
Title: Re: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?
Post by: scepticus on April 17, 2019, 07:12:30 PM
Stratege
I don't recall saying that we coud not get an advantage over roulette because it is a completely random game . I think you have misread  my post.
I have said before I play roulette and I profit from roulette USING   ideas from the 9 Blocks and the 5 in 7 AND SO COULD OTHERS WHO TAKE THE TROUBLE TO EXAMINE AND THINK !
Bothe the 9 Block and the 5 in 7 clearly show that Prior spins can have an effect on future spins and so the Maths Geeks are clearly wrong . Who else has challenged their view ?
Who else has questioned  WHY EC Bettors get half their bet returned when zero occurs ?
 Who else has offered to meet others ina B & M casino and challenged them to prove their claimed skills ?  Making claims in a forum is easy - proving them is quite another matter .
I am 99 ? Mr. Perfect has got it wrong  ,  AGAIN ;D
Title: Re: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?
Post by: MrPerfect. on April 17, 2019, 08:13:39 PM
Scepticus,  according to you , roulette is not completely random game, yet the spins are random and spins results do not depend on spins... 
  You need to exercise more.
Title: Re: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?
Post by: scepticus on April 17, 2019, 08:46:01 PM
Again you don't understand Mr Perfect.
Roulette spins ARE random.
The maths  are not random.
I concentrate  on the maths and not the spins while you concentrate on the spins !
Title: Re: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?
Post by: kav on April 17, 2019, 09:26:45 PM
Thread closed after the OP asked it, because the discussion went out of topic. I agree.It is a shame to have good discussions locked.

Please try to stay on the topic of the original post.Start a new topic if you want to discuss something different. You can also link to the topic that inspired you your new subject, but please do not sidetrack the discussion of the original post. This is a very common problem. When I moderated more I actively I very often split discussions into different topics.