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Author Topic: Cheating at Roulette in B&M Casinos? Is that your best move and option, really?  (Read 2781 times)

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During my many years in the world of Roulette, which I am very passionate about, I have encountered many cheaters who dwell in delusions that their cheating methodology and other unethical behaviors, at any given roulette table in the largest Casinos worldwide, would go unnoticed and provide them with a good profit.

Suffice to say most of the wise guys and professors with whom I held a contact with at my hay days of gambling at Europe´s largest and finest B&M Casinos, are now barred from the very establishments because whatever method they used was inevitably revealed by said Casinos. And trust when I say, Casinos even 10 years ago, not to mention today, have had, and still has, some very impressive countermeasures against cheaters.

What is exactly a cheater, per definition specifically at a roulette table?

Let's look at the basic rules outlined and enforced by any serious Casino (especially Europe):

Players are not to collect their winnings and betting chips on the outside chances until all of the winnings in the same box (e.g. all bets and winnings on 'red') have been paid. This is to avoid confusion and minimize the chance for players to steal other players' chips.

• Players must not touch chips after the dealer gives the hand signal or announces "no more bets". Players are not allowed to remove, change or add bets past this point.

• When the dealer has placed the "dolly" (the plastic marker used to mark the winning number) it is strictly prohibited to touch any chips on a winning chance.

• Croupiers are not allowed to take money to change for chips from a player's hand. If the player wishes to change he or she must place the money on the layout of the table.

• The use of electronic equipment at the table such as mobile phones and cameras is also prohibited.

The only items allowed in front of a player are Chips, money, drinks, cigarettes. Bulky items such as wallets and purses or bags must not be on the table.

These rules, however crude looking to a cheater/con-man, are essentially very efficient considering the technology and experience that backs them up with the latest surveillance and A.I. software + hardware technology mainly provided by IBM (A.I.), Cisco (UCS Servers), and Intel (Xeon processors).

Today´s Casinos, especially in Europe have an Intricate network, connected to all security details between all Casinos in Europe and is known as SIENA (Secure Information Exchange Network Application) which is a EUROPOL project and security protocol all European Casinos cooperate with on 24/7 basis..

It is extremely efficient as it forewarns any casino if a barred cheater, or any other suspicious/dangerous character is about to enter their premises, much like efficient passport controls at an airport. Once you get in that system as a red flag, forget any visit to a land-based Casino stretching from anything from a year, to life,  depending on the crime.

Like identifying card counters in Black Jack since the famous MIT student sting in the USA back in the golden days of non-existing Casino surveillance,  today's Casinos can easily identify for example Visual Ballistic players at tables, as a certain amount of factors reveals such a gambler once he is tagged by the system and observed during play.

Though RRS technology, and lately, this tech combined with RNG controlled wheels, the very challenge has basically chased away most VB gamblers from the tables, as this tech being installed in most wheels (wheel manufacturer Cammegh leading the pack). Incredibly some VBs still think they can outsmart all these security apparatus,  either out of desperation, or stupidity.

I know this because I have seen some are still hoping to extract even the slightest profit believing they will manage to somehow fool all this impressive technology with something homemade and never get caught. Stupidity is a face easily recognized once you know the facts of a set of problems occurring in a game of high uncertainty,  like war or gambling. Greed increases the probability of the events revealing the errors of such stupidity, coming true.

At their hands today, Casinos possess biometric face recognition software that is state of the art, matched only by the Counterintelligence agencies in the USA, China and Europe (UK).  This software was originally developed in the USA by a little known programming genius by the name Jeff Jonas. Half of the worlds Casinos today are using his highly effective software with enormous success in rooting out cheaters.

There are of course Casinos that make errors in the security department by trying to keep it cheap which of course is swiftly discovered and used by cheaters once the word is out. Yet the for the business, in general, these days, a cheater like a VB player or other types of AP´s have little to no chance of really winning consistently in a B&M Casino. If they claim they do, they are lying and the way to call them out is to ask them show proof of winnings as every Casino leaves a receipt to any withdrawal by a player from a Cashier.

Casino surveillance these days comes in many complex forms and are often used in a cluster form of a surveillance package controlled by very sophisticated software where the operator only controls "alerts" on the many displays in front them once the system discovers a cheater.

This is enabled by cameras of incredible resolution, that covers every square meter of the Casino floor, and sensors calibrated for various functions where EDD sensors, or, electronic device sensors, are the worst enemies to a cheater, as they today can detect a smartphone that transmits and receives short data bursts, despite being hidden in your clothes.

This will, of course, result in Casino security swiftly apprehend the target and take him to a room from interrogation before he is thrown out, or in serious cases like the one at Ritz Casino 15 years ago where a Hungarian woman and two Serbian gangsters were caught in a huge attempt to cheat the establishment.   

On the first night they walked out with £100,000. They returned on a subsequent evening by trying to walk out with £1.2m. Ritz is believed to have paid them £300,000 in cash and written out a cheque for the balance. But, as is routine when such big wins occur, the casino reviewed its security tapes and called in the police.

 For tax reasons, Casinos have to track gamblers who cross certain winnings thresholds. If you win over a specific sum, expect to be observed and tagged even if they know your name and origin from the first check in.
heaters who try to recruit people (we have one prominent on this forum who believes his VB can beat any public Casino in Europe) to play their game, because they themselves have been caught in the past, or dare not themselves take the risk of getting caught, are subject to various A.I Systems of which one of them was bought and offered by IBM and called  NORA (Non-Obvious Relationship Awareness) Software.

It was and is still today, a technology that uncovers relationships that can be exploited fraudulently for profit, such as connections between dealers and gamblers or as it has been further developed, crews of gamblers with no obvious kinship by name, or country of origin.

Security guards remain the first line of defense in any casino. They may not be high-tech, but their presence reminds guests and aspiring robbers that they’re being carefully watched.  The truth is that most cheaters aren’t fearless psychopaths, and will be scared off by the thought of confronting a Casino guard.  Everything in a Casino is within a 120-second running distance if, for example, a robbery is taking place, or a gambler being caught cheating by the internal CSS (Casino Surveillance System).

B&M Casino cheaters  play a short-sighted game, always risking of getting  caught and not only removed of their winnings, but also fined and risking prison time, depending in which country they are caught.

One could therefore naturally pose the question, facing such powerful countermeasures, is it really worth cheating at roulette when you can use purely mathematical tools and good money management to win what you desire, or need for a specific period?

Certainly not, but blind greed and idiocy is a fundamental flaw and reality all humans have to live with on a daily basis.

Even Casinos.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2019, 04:20:52 PM by thomasleor »
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"Yet the for the business, in general, these days, a cheater like a VB player or other types of AP´s have little to no chance of really winning consistently in a B&M Casino. If they claim they do, they are lying and the way to call them out is to ask them show proof of winnings as every Casino leaves a receipt to any withdrawal by a player from a Cashier."
Quote from above post.

Thomas, what exactly is the purpose of this thread?
It appears to target VB/AP players, branding them as cheaters based on the presumption that they all use roulette computers. If this is not your intention then simply winning by using a system/strategy/method could have a player banned.

I once again question your ethics as your motive is painfully obvious. What a sack of s*** you are.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2019, 12:58:34 AM by MickyP »


Mickey,  just let him be. Judging by how he show himself up till now, he works for casinos and  try to do his best.
    There always gonna be a table, terminal, PC monitor between us ( players ) and them ( casino).
   Some of casino workers are normal people that react adequate and some are taking it personally.  I can somehow understand them... it's their bred & butter, they are good slaves for a good master, master is kind and they defend him from everything they perceive as a treat.
    Now imagine when they witness real player!!! Someone who not only free in mind and money, but with potential  capability to send for cleaners them and their masters together. That should be pain for them, l gess.
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I enjoyed your post Thomas.

I agree that a casino would regard someone using a computer as a cheater. You have to play according to  rules that THEY make.
This applies to any sport or game that a person would participate in.
The fact that some players can apply VB/AP without computers would also be a threat to casinos. Else why would they apply counter measures like RSS.

I also think that if you had a system that could make you $30 000 each time you went to the casino, you would be observed and then be banned.

The following users thanked this post: thomasleor


Very informative post, thanks Thomas.
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Now l understood the first post on this tread.  Suddenly it made much more sense. 
  @Thomas.. l got a PM from our " friend". Had no idea he kept " cross communication ". I often used to give him my sencere opinion about things that sparkle his attention.  I had to confirm that situation he expirienced wasn't "his fault" . At least in this particular case.
   As you can see, my opinion was kept in private and shared only with person l thought l could trust. I apologise for my mistake on this one. You were absolutely right to get pissed off.


VB or  AP or dealer signature or bias wheel playing quite much RRS wheels have kill them make Live roulettes quite much like RNG roulette. Only chance is just go play some not so modern country land-based casino  which wheels are not so modern new easier to beat. All Cammegh wheels should avoid at any cause, if play real money because RRS  on them.


It appears I may have been quick to judge Thomas.
Please accept my apology Thomas. I was and still am unaware of the personal facts laced into your comments on VB/AP  players.


Apology accepted.


Cheating players are individual persons. They use forbidden rules.

The big cheaters are the software providers and the casinos whose the manipulated smart software. On internet all games are driven by such software. The outcome of the game depends on the bets of the players. The software uses databases with the data of players,  the  profit of results and much more. The random outcome of the devices is an illusion. The eprom contains the secret software.

On internet you can play on cheap roulette in the practice mode. With very simple statistic methods you can prove  that the outcome is not random. The roulette has two illustrations, one for starting the game and one for creating the winning number for the casino

Holland casino uses the smart software from Cammegh. With the pictures of the camera you can see the small acceleration before the ball will land and the unnatural landing. There is a connection between the bets and the  outcome.
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All good Thomas but your comments on VB/AP players remains an issue especially your reference to "the one on this forum". Care to explain or retract that statement...


"The big cheaters are the software providers and the casinos whose the manipulated smart software"

Careful Dobbelsteen. I used that line in a post and got flamed for it.
Apparently casino's can't cheat because there are rules and regulations that prohibit them from doing so.
I suspect that my casino has RRS as they installed new wheels a year or so ago.

The following users thanked this post: MrPerfect.


Badger, do not worry about being wrong while calling entire industry as cheaters. They are. Simple and undeniable fact of existence of house edge de facto makes them cheaters. Games are ridged in house favor and do provide mathematical anfair advantage to them. They consider it normal and due fighting anyone who defying current "normal" state of things.
    They are thugs who cheat others legally and like any thugs they are fine with changing rules on the go if it benefits them.
    Think about a case of 1.3m mentioned in first post, casino called police and court process took place. Anyhow judge made them pay winnings to players, but l doubt that any of these players are particularly wellcome to casinos after that. Is it fair game? Who is a cheater after all?
    Take apart and inspect any casino game. In roulette you will find direct and not direct interference with the current spin or session ... from RRS devises, ball changes, dealing procedures ... till nmb  after ball spin and ds training for dealers.
    BJ changed form, more cards and you never know if few were simply removed manually. ...
    You in fact are expected to lose and it's normal, if you play as they want you. What is not normal , at least on my opinion, is when you find a way to beat them in their own cheating game, they call you a cheater. No lows are respected,  personal data you provide to casino is not safe. It can be shared with other casinos worldwide . You do not need to do anything illigal for that.
Winning at their games is enough to be not welcome.
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Thomasleor's message is well-informed about the role of surveillance and control of individuals. But VB players must not be equated with cheats. Players who play at the last moment do not cheat, they are cunning with the rules (but I'm not saying it's moral to trick that way). It is the casino's responsibility to stop the bets before the ball starts looking for its box. Moreover, on some casino websites, it is clearly said that counting cards in blackjack is cheating. This is of course wrong! The card counter only plays. The simple act of thinking cleverly becomes a quasi-offense (for the casino). But those who count badly are not considered cheaters because they lose. It's not "counting cards" that is called cheating but "count + win". Regarding the expulsion of players "too regularly winners", they are no longer considered customers but rivals, competitors in the business sense. Any business to survive will try to eliminate or weaken the competition as much as possible. It's a business law.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 06:30:59 PM by Stratege »
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Stratege, thank you for putting the record straight regarding VB players.
Even with winning a player has to book (record) his activities and employ different methods on a rolling basis thus injecting variance into the win level and keeping away from the radar. Chipping away at the establishments ever growing bankroll is somewhat of a lasting approach that may avoid a player from being banned. Casinos need winners to lure others to the game so if they make 5 million and pay out 2 million they are still making money. It is when a player or syndicate of players go all out to drain the pot that security is initiated. As Thomas stated, greed creates the fall.